1.
At the invitation of the Chairman, the Greek delegation
resumed place at the Committee table.
2.
Ms. TELALIAN (Greece) said that the legal status of
the Muslim community in Greece was governed by the
Lausanne Treaty of 1923 in which, inter alia, the
rights of the Muslim minority in Greece and of the
Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey were defined on
the basis of the principle of reciprocity between
the two countries. She agreed with the Committee's
view that the Muslim minority in Greece was in fact
a religious minority which must be permitted to exercise
its right to self-determination. No member of the
Muslim minority could be denied the right to claim
membership of an ethnic group, but Muslims did not
have the right to claim membership of the Turkish
ethnic minority. In Greece, the Muslim minority consisted
not of a single ethnic group but of three: the Roma,
the Pomaks and the Turks. To consider all of them
as belonging to the same ethnic group would be contrary
to the principles of international law and to the
Council of Europe's Framework Convention for the Protection
of National Minorities. Each of the three communities
had its distinct features and specific culture and
spoke a different language even though the dialect
used by the Roma and the Pomaks was not committed
to writing.
3.
She assured the Committee that the Government was
continuing to do everything possible to improve the
living conditions and economic situation of the Muslim
minority. True, acts of discrimination had been committed
against that minority in the past, particularly in
the granting of licences to operate small businesses,
but that was no longer the case today. Indeed, through
one of its two representatives, the Muslim community
had recently declared itself well satisfied with its
situation.
4.
With regard to the procedure for appointment of muftis,
she explained that they were the spiritual leaders
of the Muslim community and as such were vested with
judicial powers in domestic disputes between Muslims
under their authority. While some might consider the
existence of a separate authority in such matters
to be anachronistic on the grounds, inter alia, that
it might impede the social development of minorities,
she wished to point out that all decisions adopted
by the muftis had to be approved by a national court
which determined whether they were lawful and in conformity
with the Greek Constitution. Since the muftis were
considered to be civil servants and were therefore
paid by the State, they were appointed by presidential
decree and not elected by the members of the Muslim
community, which nevertheless participated very actively
in their appointment through a Muslim council made
up of several members of that community. The council
transmitted its views on the candidates to the Ministry
of Education and Religion, which generally took them
into account. It was true that the European Court
of Human Rights had once ruled on the appointment
of a mufti, but the case had not involved the overall
competencies of the mufti and the legality of his
appointment. Greece respected the findings of the
Court and its ruling in that case had been communicated
to prosecutors and to all the courts in the country.
Although some were calling for a change in the procedure
for appointing muftis, the two members of parliament
who represented the Muslim minority had never proposed
legislation along those lines.
5.
There was no prohibition on claiming membership of
the Turkish minority, even though that had created
problems in the past. True, teachers belonging to
that minority had been convicted in court, but that
had had nothing to do with their claim of being Turkish.
The individuals in question had formed an association
and had burned books donated by the Government to
minorities. The courts of the first instance were
empowered to prohibit associations, particularly if
they considered that their activities were contrary
to public order.
6.
Replying to a question by Mr. Yutzis on religious
intolerance in Greece, she said it was true that the
primacy of the Greek Orthodox religion was enshrined
in the Greek Constitution, but that was attributable
to historical circumstances. Historically, the Greek
Orthodox religion had played a crucial role in preserving
the country's Christian heritage, particularly after
the fall of the Byzantine empire. Ninety-seven per
cent of the population at present espoused the Greek
Orthodox religion, but that did not mean that those
who professed other faiths were not entirely free
to express their religious identity. All religions
were protected by the Constitution and constituted
legal entities under public law.
7.
As to the obligation to indicate one's religion on
national identity cards, she said it had indeed elicited
objections on the part of minority groups who believed
that it could open the door to discrimination. The
European Parliament had adopted a decision in which
it called on Greece to abrogate that measure, and
the Greek authorities responsible for the protection
of personal data had accordingly decided henceforth
to do away with any reference to religious beliefs
on Greek identity papers. The Patriarch of the Greek
Orthodox Church had stated his opposition to that
decision but his proposal for a referendum on the
matter had been rejected.
8.
Under a law of 1939 the State was indeed responsible
for issuing building permits for places of worship.
The European Court of Human Rights had heard a case
on that matter and had issued a ruling in which, while
condemning the petitioner for having built a place
of worship without authorization, it found that Greece
had violated the right to religious freedom. In the
wake of that ruling, the Greek authorities had not
refused any authorization for the construction of
places of worship and there had been no further complaints
on such maters; proposals for the revision of the
law of 1939 had, however, been presented.
9.
Lastly, with regard to educational initiatives to
benefit the Muslim community, she said that 38 Muslim
teachers had recently been granted tenure by the Ministry
of Education. That was a sign of real progress for
no longer could it be said that minorities did not
have access to the Greek civil service.
10.
Mr. HALKIOTIS (Greece), responding to the Committee's
concerns over the fact that Muslim students were admitted
to certain secondary schools by the drawing of lots,
explained that that arrangement applied only to private
institutions and only when the demand for admissions
exceeded the number of places available. The idea
of competitive examinations had been suggested to
the Muslim minorities, but they preferred the existing
system. In private bilingual schools, half of the
instruction was in Greek and the other half in Turkish.
11.
With regard to recognition of the multicultural nature
of Greek society, he said that in 1996 the Ministry
of Education had participated in the drafting of a
special law that contained provisions on measures
and policies to achieve that goal. A new institute
for multicultural education had been set up and was
responsible for initiating studies, elaborating multicultural
curricula, compiling textbooks and organizing continuous
teacher training courses.
12.
Information had been requested on the efficacy of
initiatives to benefit minorities. Since 1995, considerable
progress had been made. Under a programme developed
for the Muslim minorities and financed by the European
Union all Greek textbooks had been replaced by Turkish
texts and Greek and Muslim teachers had received thorough
training. Schools had been provided with computers
and other new technological facilities. For the first
time since 1970, all textbooks in Turkish had been
replaced by new ones. The programme placed emphasis
on improving instruction at the secondary school level
and the number of Muslim children who pursued their
studies beyond primary school had increased by 300%
in four years. Similarly, the number of Muslim students
in universities had grown from 200 to 300 in the same
period. That trend was expected to continue.
13.
Instruction in human rights was included in primary
and secondary school curricula although not very much
time was devoted to it. It was for that reason that
the National Human Rights Commission had recently
submitted to the Ministry of Education a report and
teaching materials on human rights for its consideration
and approval; such materials would most probably be
used in public and private schools.
14.
Replying to the member of the Committee who had asked
whether children of the Pomak minority could receive
instruction in their own language, he said he had
participated in discussions on the subject with representatives
of that minority who had indicated that they were
not in favour of the idea as it would pose a number
of problems since Pomak was not a written language
and comprised a large number of variations.
15.
With regard to the education of the Roma, he said
that the policy of the Ministry of Education on that
subject was aimed at ensuring equality of opportunity
and social integration for Roma students and that
accordingly they attended only public schools. Nevertheless,
special schools existed - but only in isolated areas
where there were no public schools. Talks with representatives
of the Roma had revealed that there was as yet no
demand for teaching in the Roma language. Nevertheless,
a dictionary had been compiled, bringing together
the most common linguistic variations. Lastly, with
regard to instruction in the native languages of foreign
minorities such as Russian and Albanian, he said that,
since February 2001, four hours a week of instruction
in Russian could be requested and, since 2000, Albanian
could be taught in Greek schools under a bilateral
agreement signed between Greece and Albania.
16.
Mr. PAPASPYROPOULOS (Greece), replying to questions
on the living conditions of the Roma, said that more
than 5,000 Roma who had been living in precarious
conditions had been relocated - at the initiative
of local authorities and with the prior consent of
the persons concerned - in certain areas where prefabricated
homes equipped with water and electricity had been
set up. The Roma accounted for 1 per cent of the population
and were scattered over more than 80 municipal areas,
where they lived peacefully side-by-side with the
inhabitants. Cases of expulsion and physical aggression
were rare. Since 1999, only three expulsions had been
ordered by local authorities, and in each case the
ombudsman's office had intervened and obtained the
stay of those measures, with the exception of one
case in which the Government intended to adopt sanctions
against the local authorities.
17.
The Roma were temporarily relocated only when measures
were urgently required in order to meet their needs.
Their relocation lasted only until an appropriate
and durable solution was found. In that regard it
should be noted that, on the basis of a Ministerial
Decree, the Roma could take out housing loans on very
advantageous terms. Lastly, a number of NGOs (Drom
Network, Médecins du Monde and Médecins sans frontières)
were consulted during the elaboration of programmes
to benefit the Roma and participated in their implementation.
At the same time, NGOs established by the Roma were
involved in that process through the intermediary
of the Greek Federation of Roma Organizations.
18.
Mr. GIANNOULAS (Greece) said that the Ministry of
Public Order had been working to implement the Committee's
general recommendation XIII according to which the
law-enforcement officials should receive in-depth
training to enable them, in the performance of their
duties, to respect and protect human dignity and to
defend and ensure respect for the human rights of
all, irrespective of race, colour, or national or
ethnic origin. Accordingly, severe sanctions were
provided for persons who violated the Standard Minimum
Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners. In October 2000,
a code of conduct containing directives on respect
for human rights by police officers had been published.
Instruction in human rights and international instruments
was likewise provided at police academies and in 2000,
on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of the
adoption of the European Convention on Human Rights,
conferences had been given by specialists in that
field in police academies in the capital city and
in the various regions. In addition, many police officers
had participated in seminars and conferences organized
on such issues by universities and by NGOs. Nevertheless,
the Ministry of Public Order considered it necessary,
in addition, to organize lectures and courses on the
topic of racial discrimination and intended to institute
a human rights day, to prepare a manual on human rights
for use by police officers and to publish in the police
gazette the proceedings of cases of human rights violations
in which police officers were implicated. With regard
to the application of disciplinary sanctions, he said
that, in 2000, 53 inquiries had been conducted; 18
of the cases in question had been concluded, while
25 were still ongoing. In one of the 18 cases, a police
officer had been found guilty, had had to make a public
apology to the victim and to pay compensation.
19.
The improvement of conditions of detention for foreigners
under expulsion orders was the priority of the Ministry
of Public Order. In 2000, US$ 5,000 had been allocated
for the repair of buildings of penitentiary institutions
and a project for the construction of new police stations
was shortly to be implemented. An immigration bill
envisaged that foreigners subject to expulsion must
be detained in separate quarters and that the maximum
length of detention for such persons was three months.
With regard to the penitentiary establishment visited
by the NGO Human Rights Watch in November 2000, he
said that the Ministry of Public Order had given a
detailed reply in which it had recognized that existing
problems were largely due to prison overpopulation.
For the moment, persons convicted of criminal offences
and individuals subject to expulsion orders were not
yet housed in separate quarters, but would be as soon
as possible.
20.
Lastly, noting that some members of the Committee
had raised the question of the mass expulsion of illegal
immigrants, he recalled that Greece was under an obligation
to take steps to discourage illegal immigration and
to combat transboundary crime in accordance with the
Schengen Agreements. The police could adopt administrative
decisions and apply judicial decisions on expulsion;
such decisions were taken on a case-by-case basis
and could be appealed.
21.
Ms. TELALIAN (Greece), replying to the question concerning
restrictions on the entry into Greece of Asian and
Latin American workers, said that such restrictions
had indeed been imposed at a certain period in order
to contain the massive influx of workers from those
regions of the world, but that the corresponding provisions
in the immigration bill had been deleted. Foreign
domestic workers were henceforth entitled to change
employer without losing their work permit, since the
permit was no longer granted for one employer alone.
In the event of abuses, the women concerned could
appeal to any of a number of organizations if they
wished to lodge a complaint against their employer.
The immigration bill contained no provisions covering
discriminatory acts but nevertheless referred to the
Penal Code of 1979, which laid down penalties for
racist acts and incitement to racial hatred. That
constituted progress, since proceedings could now
be instituted in respect of such acts by the Public
Prosecutor, and not exclusively on the basis of a
complaint by the victims. The bill also stipulated
that children of undocumented immigrants must obligatorily
be enrolled in a public school and must remain in
school for the normal minimum period.
22.
Mr. ABOUL-NASR said that the Greek delegation had
unfortunately not responded to his request for information
on Albanians living in Greece and noted that the Greek
Orthodox Church wielded a great deal of influence,
even in decisions of an administrative nature. He
also regretted the continuing confusion made between
religion and race apparent in the report and in the
replies of the delegation. For example, numerous references
had been made to Muslims as a race. He hoped that
that error would not be repeated in the State Party's
next report.
23.
Mr. De GOUTTES said he had taken note with satisfaction
of a number of encouraging developments that promoted
greater respect for the rights of minorities in Greece,
including recognition of the decisions handed down
by the European Court of Human Rights, removal of
the reference to religion on national identity cards
and training in the rights of minorities for law-enforcement
officials. Noting that Greece had signed the Framework
Convention of the Council of Europe for the Protection
of National Minorities, he asked about the consequences
of that important measure, particularly for the Turkish
and Gypsy minorities but also for the Albanian and
Macedonian minorities. He welcomed the establishment
in 1998 of the National Human Rights Commission and
observed that it had proposed the abolition of the
law on building permits for places of worship. He
would like to know whether the National Commission
had made other proposals that might be of interest
to the Committee and whether it had participated in
the preparation of the report submitted by the State
Party. Lastly, he asked whether the Greek Government
was considering making a declaration under article
14 of the Convention.
24.
Mr. YUTZIS said he wished first of all to examine
in greater detail the place of religion in Greece.
In his view, there was no denying that, even in countries
with a secular tradition, religion played an important
role in the development and building of national identities,
and that it was obvious in the present case that the
Greek Orthodox Church was inextricably connected with
the history of Greece. That situation, however, must
not give rise to discrimination or preferential treatment,
and the State must not accord preference to a particular
religion, even if it had played a historic role. In
that connection, he pointed out that even if, as the
delegation had stated, 97 per cent of the Greek population
declared that they were members of the Greek Orthodox
faith, there was nothing to indicate that the same
percentage of the population actually practiced that
religion.
25.
Another point to which he wished to draw the attention
of the Greek authorities was the way the Roma minority
was viewed. Without disputing the fact that there
were drug and arms traffickers, he believed that the
authorities should work to ensure that the Roma as
a whole were not necessarily stigmatized in that area.
26.
Mr. THORNBERRY said that, in matters of identity,
reference should be made not to the Treaty of Lausanne,
which was a treaty between States based on reciprocity,
but rather to international human rights instruments.
Similarly, while the term Muslim could be considered
a generic term in the context of the Treaty of Lausanne,
the self-identification of groups which were covered
by that term and which must be able to exercise their
own rights by virtue of international human rights
instruments, and especially the Convention, must not
be affected by that term.
27.
He would like to know the basis for the statistics
given in the report. Regarding the education of the
Roma population, on which several paragraphs of the
report contained information, he referred to paragraph
18 of the Committee's general recommendation XXVII
which stated, among other things, that the segregation
of Roma students must be prevented and avoided to
the extent possible while leaving open the possibility
of bilingual education or education in their mother
tongue. It was his understanding that the Greek authorities
would respect that provision at the request of the
minority concerned but that, in the case of the Roma,
no such request had been made. Lastly, he would appreciate
additional information on the Macedonian community,
and in particular, wished to know what effect had
been given to the ruling of the European Court of
Human Rights in the Sidiropoulos v. Greece case of
10 July 1998.
28.
Mr. SHAHI expressed satisfaction that the rights of
minorities were increasingly well guaranteed in Greece.
The self-identification of Muslims remained a subject
of concern, however. Paragraph 18 of the report stated
that the attempt to identify the entire Muslim minority
of Thrace as "Turkish" was unjustifiable
and contrary to the spirit and purpose of the European
Framework Convention, which protected the members
of minority groups from assimilation into other groups
by reason of their size. In that connection, he referred
to the Committee's General Recommendation VIII concerning
the interpretation and application of article 1, paragraphs
1 and 4, of the Convention, in which the Committee
stated that it was of the opinion that such identification
must, in the absence of justification to the contrary,
be based on self-identification by the individual
concerned. It had been acknowledged that the so-called
Muslim minority in Greece comprised three ethnic groups
- persons of Turkish origin, Pomaks and Roma - but
he failed to see how it could be contrary to the spirit
of the European Framework Convention for individuals
belonging to those groups voluntarily to identify
themselves with another ethnic group. Lastly, he requested
the Greek Government to provide information in its
next report on the situation of the Macedonian and
Albanian communities would also like to know whether
religious communities had the right freely to administer
their charitable institutions.
29.
Ms. TELALIAN (Greece), replying to the questions that
had been asked, said that more detailed information
would be presented in the States Party's next periodic
report. The Framework Convention for the Protection
of National Minorities had been signed, but not ratified,
by the Greek Government, although the Government was
already applying its provisions. There was no Macedonian
minority officially recognized as such in Greece,
and it was unfortunate that certain activists were
seeking to convince the international community otherwise.
The truth was that a group of persons in the north
of Greece spoke a Slavonic dialect, but they had never
said that they did not consider themselves Greek nor
had they claimed a different ethnic identify. In conformity
with the principle of self-identification, the desire
of those persons, who had not requested affiliation
with any country other than Greece, should be respected.
For that reason Greece did not recognize the existence
of a Macedonian minority in its territory.
30.
With regard to the role played by the National Human
Rights Commission in the preparation of the report,
she said that the Government had based itself on the
annual report of the Commission and some of its suggestions,
particularly those relating to freedom of religion.
She acknowledged that race and religion must not be
equated, but pointed out that, in the Treaty of Lausanne,
for example, the only classification was religious.
The fact that the groups comprising the Muslim minority
were of different ethnic origins did not alter the
fact that they had a single religion. The Greek authorities
considered that the Greek Orthodox religion must not
give rise to domination or even preferences: on the
contrary, everything was being done to promote religious
tolerance.
31.
The Greek position was not based exclusively on the
Treaty of Lausanne, which in fact contained very few
provisions on minority rights, and the authorities
applied the entire range of international instruments
in force. For example, many steps had been taken to
ensure the exercise of the right to education for
members of the Muslim minority or the Roma population,
as members of the Committee had been able to see from
the report. Opportunities for education in the Roma
language existed, but the fact was that the Roma preferred
instruction in Greek so as to become fully integrated
into the Greek population.
32.
In the Sidiropoulos v. Greece ruling of 10 July 1998,
the European Court of Human Rights had found that
the Greek courts had violated article 11 of the European
Convention by refusing to register an association
suspected of undermining the country's territorial
integrity. The Greek authorities had complied with
that ruling of the European Court, and the Council
of Ministers of the Council of Europe had adopted
a decision recognizing that Greece had fulfilled its
obligations and considering the matter closed.
33.
With regard to the question of self-identification,
no one disputed the fact that, if certain persons
wished voluntarily to identify themselves as part
of a minority, they should be able to do so. Nevertheless
the request must be made by the persons concerned
themselves, and not by groups of activists. Thus,
a request for self-identification by the Roma had
not been challenged, but no individual had asked to
be recognized as being part of a so-called ethnic
group. Lastly, regarding police action against Roma
implicated in arms or drug trafficking, she emphasized
once again that the police intervened only to maintain
public order and that its actions were in no way racially
motivated.
34.
Mr. RECHETOV (Country Rapporteur for Greece) said
that the Greek delegation had provided the Committee
with detailed and substantiated information, and everything
seemed to indicate that the State party was making
considerable efforts to fulfil its obligations under
the Convention. Certain points called for clarification,
however. For example, the concept of self-identification
seemed to cause a certain amount of confusion. Clearly,
Greece was required to fulfil the commitments it had
undertaken under certain international instruments,
including the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923. It must
also, however, face up to the problems of minorities
on the basis of more contemporary norms and particularly
the provisions of the Convention. In the matter of
self-identification, it should be recalled that, at
its thirty-eighth session, the Committee had indicated,
in its General Recommendation VIII concerning the
interpretation and application of article 1, paragraphs
1 and 4, of the Convention (CERD/C/365/Rev.1), that
it was of the opinion that such identification should,
in the absence justification to the contrary, be based
upon self-identification by the individual concerned.
It was therefore entirely clear that self-identification
was an exclusively personal concept, and that States
were not to define criteria in that area. In addition,
with regard to recognition by the State Party of a
given national or ethnic group or indigenous population,
it must be recalled that, in its General Recommendation
XXIV (CERD/C/365/Rev.1), adopted in 1999, the Committee
had considered that "certain criteria should
be uniformly applied to all groups, in particular
the number of persons concerned, and their being of
a race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin
different from the majority or from other groups within
the population".
35.
The Greek delegation had provided useful information
on the situation of religious minorities. In that
field, better relations should be fostered between
the State and minorities. Positive aspects had nevertheless
been evoked, since it appeared that the identity cards
issued to Greek citizens no longer mentioned religious
affiliation and that for some time now it had become
easier to obtain permits to build places of worship
other than for the Greek Orthodox religion.
36.
In the field of education, the argument that members
of certain minorities did not wish to receive schooling
in a language other than Greek was not satisfactory,
and he did not think that the issue of instruction
in the Roma language could be dispensed with so easily.
The fact that members of the police were instructed
in human rights matters was a positive element.
37.
Lastly, however difficult it might be to accept the
fact, there was no doubt that Greece was a multiethnic,
multicultural and multinational country. In that context,
the question of the existence of minorities, and particularly
of the Macedonian minority, remained an outstanding
issue. In that connection, it should be recalled that
respect for the principle of self-determination in
no way presupposed any separation decided unilaterally
by a given ethnic community.
38.
The CHAIRMAN thanked the Greek delegation and welcomed
the spirit of openness and frankness that had prevailed
during the consideration of the report of Greece.
He announced that the Committee had thus concluded
its consideration of the fifteenth periodic report
of Greece. |
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